Minniemax

ROFLMAO!!!! I SO know how you feel you know! See my rant of earlier this week LOL!

I am not a part of fandom anymore, it p's me off too much. What are the haters saying now that's upset you?

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Yep, I feel your pain.

Oh, that's the whole issue about supposedly raping people while having supposedly sex with a possessed person. Now some idiots want Jared to take a stance about it *rolls eyes*

I'm telling you Some people are only alive, because it's illegal to kill them.

The whole thing about the wanks on SPN is, the issues are so RIDICULOUS, I fail to find the words for it.

Misogyny, racism, condoning rape, WTF???????

As if we didn't have enough issues in, you know, REAL LIFE. Themes where people like them could go and engage themselves and MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But no, they rather open their yaps on LJ, where they could posture as important and whatever, all the while spoiling the fun for the rest of us.

GRRRR.

LOL, sorry for the capslock - aww, what am I saying, you get it for sure :-))

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Oh dear goodness me you must be joking?!

That is SO pathetic! Seriously! Jaren take a stance on something that is complete fan conjecture... yeah, okay. They need to get a sodding lif eand quickly.

Like you said, either just enjoy the show or hate it and dont watch it, but dont create probelms and bleat on about them!

This happens with new Who vs Old Who all the time and it bugs the crap out of me!

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Heeee!! I love your icon.

Hey, I wrote a deeply meaningful comment farther down, whaddaya think about it?

*hugs*
*hugs for G*

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That's my ranting icon hehe!

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Thatnks for the advice, but if I turned off or ignored everything I found offensive or objectionable in the world, I would live under a rock. And if it bothers you so much that I - or people like me - don't accept everything we're spoon-fed in the media and choose to have actual discussions about the things we have issues with, then I suggest you take the your own advice in the spirit it was given and get off the damn internet. Okay? Cheers.

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You're partaking in the wanks? *blinks*
I didn't notice. Well, sorry if I offended you. Discussions are still not wank and you might notice whom I addressed.

Edited Date: 2008-10-17 11:02 am (UTC)

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You seemed to be addressing anybody who had issues with the show, and suggesting that anybody who did should just stop watching. I'm not a part of this particular wank, but I've had this and similar suggestions made to me in the past when I've dared to critisise the show portrayal of women/minorities/other issues, and it grates.

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"You seemed to be addressing"

Um, well, I didn't?

The problem for me is, there's this really small part of the world I'm getting a joy from. It's neither important nor big. So it really pisses me off, if people take part in it, calling themselves fans, and then proceed to have irrational issues and discussions and wanks about a fictional world, ruining my joy in the process.

There's so much wrong in the world. Hell, there are so many so much worse shows and movies and programs on TV. Why focus on something that doesn't do any harm?

For my part, it's just because I can't close my eyes to the real world and have seen so much evil in the real life, that I feel those discussions are completely misplaced and mostly not logical, measuring things with double moral.
So far I know, no one is asking Bruce Willins to take a stance about killing people. Hell, most of the world seem to be alright with America's wars. I don't get being so upset with a TV show and still watching it.

Well, anyway, this is my take on things and I understand if you're not sharing it.

PS The icon is a joke in case it's not clear. I know, I have a weird sense of humour. ;-)

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Yeah well it happens all the time in the Doctor Who fandom too. It's all fandoms.

Because never was a truer word spoken than...

"The only problem with the public. Is the people"

And that's the issue here, people are mostly jerks, and that includes those in fandom on the net. Now I know there's a lot of nice people out there, but they are outnumbered 10 to 1, so I stay away from fandom completely to avoid such creatures enraging me.

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It's not really about being spoon fed is it? It's about if you find so much wrong with a show, don't watch it, simple as.

That was her point and I agree with it.

And if you're one of those she was talking about, then perhaps it would be nice to remember to not to be so rude to my friend on HER LJ, where she is venting, quite rightly so, in her own personal, paid for space and take your bulls*it comments to the comms and your own LJ where other people might actually give a crap about what you have to say?!

Oh and if you have to live under a rock to avoid all the things you find objectionable then you need to lighten up and get a life, cos you're obviously very objectional yourself.

Edited Date: 2008-10-17 11:08 am (UTC)

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There, there... *pets you both*

Jamie, thank you for defending my virtue *g*, but she didn't mean it bad, right, sweetie?

I understand that someone could read my entry and get annoyed if he/she felt spoken to. I still posted it, because I think if everyone can post about the issues, so can I about having an issue with the issues, right? LOL

God, that's so complicated. Anyway, no harm done and I'd fully understand if someone would defriend me over this, because no one should be pressed into read things they don't want to see, right?

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Yikes, I didn't see this comment til after I posted. Sorry for getting mad in your journal.

Yeah, we approach things different ways. I know I had a similar reaction to you when I was in the SGA fandom w/r/t the rather enormous... everything problem they have. But I pull things apart and hold them upside down and shake them til things fall out. I study. It's how I interact with media, and when people tell me that's not okay, it drives me up the wall.

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Ah, okay, somehow I didn't know you're studying media LOL - what a great friend I make.

I get your point - I had a similar reaction on Buffy, it still pisses me off today when I think about the double moral of the show and how everyone was gushing about it LOL. Well, I fucked off and died in that fandom, simply as that.

I think that sometimes we get so involved, we forget it's fiction, you know?
I was always the one in the school who said "how on earth want you to know what the artist wanted to say with his work?"

I think we can be fairly sure Kripke doesn't want to say all the things that are interpreted in his work, especially the bad ones. Well, it's aired, isn't it? So what can he do about it? Even more important, why should he? He follows his ideas and tells the story how he wants, we just forget that the show isn't judging or justifying any- and everything. We want it to do it, though - we want someone to tell us what is right and what not and if possible, it should match our opinions, too, because we feel all justified then. I don't even think most people are aware of it, but it is what I believe.

And it'd be alright, even, if not for the fact, that those issues are picked out and not all are being addressed. And no matter how many metas we want to write, we are still just people watching a show, nothing more, nothing less.

What really matters though is, what do we do when we switch the TV off? What do we do in our RL? Do we help? Are we making a difference? Because talking is still a coward's way (as in, "it's not right that our neighbour is beating his wife, but it's not my problem").

Gosh, I should really stop writing sentences that start with "And..."
Well, anyway, that's what I wanted to say. *g*

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I tend to talk more about the creative writing part - our uni system is set up deifferently, so I have majors in lit studies, writing, and media studies. One of the big things you pick up in those course is that what the author intended isn't always what comes through. I'm sure Kripke & co didn't intend for there to be huge misogynistic overtones to season 3, but there were. Maybe they didn't intend for the whole "Sam-as-a-rapist" to ever be an issue, but they've set up a situation in the narrative, intentionally or no, where it is a possibility. And that makes people uncomfortable. (rape is one of those things where everyone has something to say :D) And some people just want to enjoy the show and not think about it, but for other, thinking about these things is a huge part of how they enjoy the show.

And the thing is, maybe talking about it won't do a damn bit of good. (I have to say it's done wonders for my grades) But I'm of the opinion that shutting up and taking it is the worst thing you could do, whether you're talking about a TV show that objectifies and demonises women, or domestic violence, or rape, or racism. Maybe talking is the coward's way, but it's better than just pretending nothing's wrong, surely?

(Sorry! I don't mean to come in here and lecture at you. I feel very rude.)

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Heh, no problem.

Pretending is never good, but there should be a balance between the things - somehow are mostly the bad (far less) undertones exposed. There's nothing wrong with portraying something - no one would have such issues with a reportage, right? If Kripke created ideal people, now that would be pretending. Besides, the discussions are *so* one-sided... If Dean treats women like skanks and gets laid a lot, what is it to say about those women? I didn't see any wank about the psychic girl who got her eyes burned out and she was dressed like a skank (in my book) and came on to the boys in a really vulgar way...

Well, I think I'll watch the episode tonight and refrain from reading any reactions LOL (even if it *is* annoying to filter my own flist).

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what is it to say about those women
But those women are characters on a show written mostly by men. And that show has a disturbing tendency for women to be evil, promiscuous, or brutally murdered. Sometimes all three.

Anyway. Enjoy the episode tonight!

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hmm, I think it's very subjective POV, but - as you said - I'm now settling down to watch. :-)

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It's not about "finding so much wrong with a show". I like the show, that's the point. I'm attached to the characters, I'm interested in the mytharc, I want to find out what happens. But maybe there's something in I object to, and this is true of... just about all contemoroary media. It's actually the problem with doing media studies, I see patterns and ideologies in everything. And some of the ideologies I find in some shows (show that I like, that I watch and really enjoy) are disturbing. So, I rather than completely throwing in the towel and giving up on the show, I get online and talk about it. I read about it. I look at what other, smarter people have said about it, I add my own contributions, and I learn a lot.

And being told to FUCK OFF AND DIE, or sit down and shut up, or stop harshing the squee, for daring to have a critical opinion instead of unmitigated glee at some of the misogynistic/racist crap we get on TV? That's annoying.

But of course, I'm the objectionable one, right? For actually giving a damn. Right.

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Look to be honest. What you said in that first paragraph there ....

It's not about "finding so much wrong with a show". I like the show, that's the point. I'm attached to the characters, I'm interested in the mytharc, I want to find out what happens. But maybe there's something in I object to, and this is true of... just about all contemoroary media. It's actually the problem with doing media studies, I see patterns and ideologies in everything. And some of the ideologies I find in some shows (show that I like, that I watch and really enjoy) are disturbing. So, I rather than completely throwing in the towel and giving up on the show, I get online and talk about it. I read about it. I look at what other, smarter people have said about it, I add my own contributions, and I learn a lot.

Made me think "Well then, the original post made by Minniemax, didn’t apply to her at all." So I am really shocked now that you replied to it, or seemed to be upset by what she said. Because judging you on that, as I said, it didn’t apply to you or the type of person you seem to now be?

So please excuse my affront against you, while I still don’t understand why you took offence to something that was not aimed at you, I obviously took you completely the wrong way and assumed you were one of the haters who she was actually talking about.

Personally I don’t find too much misogyny or racism in this show. There are real people, in real life, just like Dean and Sam and the other characters. So when I consider that fact, it would be highly unrealistic to expect never to see it on a show I watched. Or a movie. Perhaps a more productive use of time would be to discuss the social implications of misogyny and racism in the real world that affects people daily? Or join a movement determined to stamp such things out and do something for real for the cause? And then we could get on with enjoying shows we like for the fiction they are, or avoid watching those who portray characters that remind us of traits we dislike in real people in the world?

I don’t know. My SPN anger at the moment is aimed mostly at the people who are bleating on about how Sam is raping Ruby, when that’s not even been in the show and so is not even canon or a real issue to be discussing anyway. It’s fault finding and I hate that kind of crud, it’s why I stay the heck away from fandom, it’s full of nonsense just like that. It would be a more valuable use of time to discuss or work towards helping those in the real world involved in rape or victims of it than bleating on about conjecture and guess work of a fictional television show IMHO.

So I was probably displacing my anger at that and what I perceived as an attack on my friend and allowed that to spill over onto you, when I certainly shouldn’t have. Sorry.

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Wow, Jamie, you can write my thoughts! ;-)

From "Personally I don’t find too much misogyny or racism in this show." to "It would be a more valuable use of time to discuss or work towards helping those in the real world involved in rape or victims of it than bleating on about conjecture and guess work of a fictional television show IMHO.
" is exactly what I wanted to say.

Maybe I should let you make my posts ROFLMAO

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hehehe!

You know what I do for a living dont you?

I don’t find fandoms that have child sexual abuse as issues and go on about it, complaining about said show, watching it and moaning about it showing that stuff. Nor do I find a fandom and create a situation where I can shout “Child Sexual Abuse!” when it’s not even canon or written into the show at all!

Cos I'm actually actively doing something about it for real every day anyway. And that’s what you do if you honestly want to make some impact on something that bothers you. Of course you don’t have to do anything about things you care about, it’s not a staple is what I am saying, but at the very least accept that this conjecture and sharing of opinions is of no real use whatsoever to anyone and never will be.

Sure there’s a lot to be said for philosophical and educational debate, but inevitably that stuff only expands understanding, shares opinions, can sometimes help form tolerance and creates a lot of negative things to boot. It doesn’t make one edge of difference to the world though.

There's enough misery going on in the real world as it is! We don't need it spilling into our fictional entertainment that is meant to take you away from this harsh reality.

So I suggest sticking to the real world and let entertainment be just that, entertaining.

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I may have slightly overreacted? I got a lot of that sort of reaction last season trying to talk about some of the issues I had. The conversation would usually go: "Hey, there seems to be a lot of Sam and Dean beating up women this season. That's a bit troubling." "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WHY ARE YOU STILL WATCHING IT YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF."

(PS note that fandom - SPN fandom especially - actually does get out and do things about these issues. Check out

fandom_rocks, or Sweet Charity, or 14 Valentines, all of which donate to women's services or raise awareness of women's issues)

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I have issues with this matter as well LOL! Cos I saw it as they were demons the boys were beating up and not women as such. But anyways that is an old thing for me and I am not angry about it anymore, so I'll shut the heck up about it.

Did I just hear my wife say "Well that'll be a first!" ?!

Those comms that do things like that totally rock, I did know about them and I am a fan of such things. I don’t support them actively because I have other areas in my life and work that I support fully and cant give to all causes that are important or I would be even poorer than I already am. And right now I am as poor as a Church mouse who just ran out of cheese. ;)

Again, I hope you’re okay and you will excuse my earlier outburst.

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ilovemybaby.livejournal.com

Wow, there is a new wank? What is it about, now? *rolls eyes*

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The supposed rape Sam is doing with Ruby... *rolls eyes*
Poor Jared :-(

PS Icon!Love! It's exactly how Dean's reaction would be ROFLMAO!

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ilovemybaby.livejournal.com

The WHAT?? Because Ruby is posessing someone? Dude, who said he really slept with her? I think her showing up in her underwear on 401 was just a way to make anyone who would knock on the door think she was just a regular chick...

Are you serious that people are wanking over this? I mean... seriously? Argh.

PS: LOL! Yeah, that's why I love that icon! Wish I didn't need to use it so much, though *rolls eyes*

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Yep. Sadly, no joke. Apparently, there are also voices asking how Jared stance is... *suppresses the urge to lose the lunch*

um, sorry ;-p

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dividedloyalty.livejournal.com

Heh. Tell people that Ruby's current body is probably dead, so it's not really rape, it's just necrofilia. That's probably all right with most of people on fandom, me thinks. If it's not, well. Hmm. I don't really know.

:)

Your Bruce Willis line? Dead on. So so right. Yea.

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munibunny.livejournal.com

OMG, that just made me laugh way more than it should. Thanks for that. :)

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ROFLMAO!!!! You're right, necrophilia it is!

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raingazer.livejournal.com

LMAO! I was just about to say that!! Relax guys, the poor girl's not raped, just dead. Happy now? *shakes head* :D

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raingazer.livejournal.com

This whole discussion strikes me as very double-standard really. Even if it were to be eventually proved that it is rape (which I don't think it will), I bet most of these same people wanking have no issues reading/writing noncon fanfic. How come rape is okay when they're writing it? Surely they realize the show is ALSO fiction?

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